DBT skills conflict

[Member156]

Looking  for any tips on how to effectively communicate with my pwbpd.

Recently moved out for my own mental health and that of our child. I no longer have romantic feelings for my husband with BPD, doing my best to facilitate a relationship between him and his child. 

Unfortunately his focus is on recovering the family unit and will not accept my need to leave and heal myself.

He uses D.E.A.R. man skills on me and insists I take the middle path to make him feel safe (ie commit to a relationship and probably move back in with him) 

I repeat that I don't want to live together and i don't have feelings, he slips into depression etc and always says it hurts and I'm not walking the middle path and helping his needs.

Any advice on DBT language I can say back to him? It feels with all his therapy, he's much more skilful and its making me feel guilty.

[wordman]

@Member156 Hello member 156. Your partner appears to be a kind person. Let his kindness overcome you and you will find the answers. I believe he is right to want to heal your family unit. Recover with the person who cares about you, not with the people who don't care. Healing is by all definitions attainable and extremely possible. 

Kind Regards

Wordman 

[Former-Member]

Hi @Member156 and welcome to the forums 😊

For many, it can take a lot of courage to move out of the family home, so I commend you on that and prioritising your mental health and needs, because as every individual's experience is unique, it can sometimes be necessary. 

It's sounds like a really tough situation, it's hard to know what might feel helpful words but I wonder if you both might be open to couples counselling or mediation? An opportunity with a third party might be helpful for both sides to have an opportunity to communicate their needs?

[wellwellwellnez]

Hi @Member156 .

I was like: pw? That's a new one.

Then I was like: oh, "person with", I know what that is.

So, if you're finding yourself being coerced by communication skill techniques, that suggests either a bad technique or bad practice.

I just looked it up and found...

"Using this skill, clients learn to express their needs and wants in a way that is respectful to themselves and others, increasing the likelihood of positive outcomes."

...so my first questions are mainly around questions of respect. Respect of free will is respect 101.

Looking at the acronym, HOLY SHIT!!!. It's all manosphere stuff. DEARMAN might as well be PPPPPPP (Project.project.project.project.project.project.etc).

Describe the facts: which will include the facts you accept and dis-include the facts that you reject. At the same time, casting yourself as the "producer of facts".

Express in "I" statements: Gee whiz, so the Taoists got it wrong did they? I thought non-judgemental engagement was used by saying "I think" or "I feel" statements, separating self from perception. Not according to this. This mantra is "me, me, me, me ,me, me".

Assert: (and then, get this)

Reinforce your assertion: We're four steps in now and haven't listened once. (This is a "communication guide") But that's okay. We don't need to listen because instead we're going to choose....

Mindfulness: Mindfulness described as "not getting sidetracked or distracted by other issues" like other perspectives and/or fact checking and/or values based assessment.

Appear confident "(even if you don't feel it"): is the funniest one yet. Vulnerability is for cucks, right?

Negotiate: As a final step, but only after reinforcing entitlement in six different ways, should you attempt to enter such negotiation.

[wellwellwellnez]

.....taking in the fact that this DEARMAN was apparently made by the DBT creator, I feel I shoudln't dismiss out of hand. (while observing that this system has already "got my goat"). So I started looking for academic inquiry.

I found something crucial. The initial DEARMAN tests weren't testing for effective communication. They were testing for compliance. They tested using the techniques to make someone agree to being at a specific time and place. (Now I have more goats.) It's at the very start of the link below (this is getting really interesting).

https://scholarworks.wmich.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1744&context=dissertations

[wellwellwellnez]

okay, I'm skimming and skipping but the start of Present Study section says a lot.

"

THE PRESENT STUDY
Despite the repeated use of DESC scripts and DEAR-MAN in treatment
protocols, the author was unable to identify any empirical studies demonstrating the
effectiveness of these skills, either as persuasion tools, or tools to achieve the broader
outcome of interpersonal effectiveness (i.e., effective persuasion without damaging
relationships or self-respect; Linehan, 2015, pp. 231-236).

"

This was in 2015, so there may of been breakthroughs since then. But they'd already been at it since 1993 so maybe not.

I think my short answer to the best way to use DEARMAN is to find another framework. Maybe to balance it or maybe to replace it. Either way, something that works and/or can be agreed upon sounds like the ticket.

I'm on-vibe with this researcher. They're asking about more than persuasion. Also, it seems that DEARMAN isn't actually that persuasive.

[wellwellwellnez]

....or then again (and I admit to getting a bit lost going through the experiment they ran and the data) they got some persuasiveness results. Though not better than some of the controls they used. They're not exactly conclusive in general but they walked away, not hating on the system (like I apparently did).

I'm not sure if you were asking for "ammo" but I think I provided some. Now I'm assessing whether that was the right response. In other words, shooting and then asking questions.

My rant aside, and after looking at different applications of it, I'm seeing parts of DEARMAN that has potential. A lot of these things come down to a whole range of variables.

I think there's a larger question of whether it's good for men to have any sort of special communication technique for men.Is that more inclusive or more alienating? But that's a whole other subject.

I've also assessed this from the lens of someone whose diagnosis is AVPD/PTSD. I don't have the knowledge to see this from all the BPD angles. It might be good to get some neutral stance PWBPD perspectives, if you can.

[Member156]

@wellwellwellnez Thank you so much for researching and responding. I really appreciate it

It's been helpful because sometimes I get mixed up feeling confused after the conversations with him.

I agree his use of the dearman concept may not fit the situation he's trying to repair.

@Former-Member Do you know of any free services? 

Thank you both, feeling a little more peaceful  within myself 🙏

[wellwellwellnez]

I've appreciated the food for thought @Member156 .

My takes tend to be a little anti-behaviouralist. Generally skeptical of psychology you use on someone. I prefer psychology that you use with someone.

State-based providers might be the best place to look for free mediation. They've got more reason to invest. (i.e: it tends to save on court costs).

[AussieRecharger]

@Member156 

I could be on the wrong track but would some mediation training help? Paraphrasing his goals and then reframes his goals in a way that becomes specific to his own outcomes.  IE. I miss you and you make me a better person. It sounds like you are lonely and doubting yourself, It might be worth you looking into a social outlet that makes you feel good about yourself.